Not signed in (Sign In)

Vanilla 1.1.9 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome Guest!
Want to take part in these discussions? If you have an account, sign in now.
If you don't have an account, apply for one now.
    • CommentAuthorCarl
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2006 edited
     # 1
    Topher:

    trust in language.

    Your comment "trust in language" goes to the heart of the difference between a circular world view and the linear one. The linear one, e.g., the Western Judeo, Christian, Islamic view, knows good & true, bad & false, as polar realities on opposite ends of a linear continuum. The circular one, especially the Taoist view, sees good & true, bad & false, as mysteriously intertwined on a circle with no beginning or end.

    On the other hand, Topher:

    One thing I am finally dealing with in my own life is that high and low are two sides of the same coin.

    From the circular point of view neither the circular or the linear are 'true', i.e., the circular and the linear produce each other. They are "two sides of the same coin". Thus, from the circular view no one goes to hell because they see things differently. The linear view is understandably quite the opposite.

    For example, being a 'Taoist fundamentalist',...
    I take no action and the people are transformed of themselves;
    I prefer stillness and the people are rectified of themselves;
    I am not meddlesome and the people prosper of themselves;
    I am free from desire and the people of themselves become simple like the uncarved block.

    Of course, also being a human animal I take action, move about, meddle and desire. But hey, great perfection seems chipped! - you, me, everyone, everything. We are all in the same boat. On the other hand, the 'Judeo-Christian-Islamic (or Communist, etc.) fundamentalist' seeks to transform people by having them conform to a beautiful, good and true way that can be spoken of. And if they don't, off to hell they go. (Now, there's tribal instinct for you!)

    Okey. Why, I wonder, did humanity end up with these two archetypical points of view, circular and linear. On one hand I could think it inevitable. After all if the circular and the linear produce each other, then if half the world aligned with one view, then the other half would naturally align with the other. Still, this seems a bit far fetched even for me.

    Seeing these views as based in biology is easier to swallow. Being social animals we have two powerful and opposing tribal instincts. One I'll call the 'dividing' instinct. It expresses itself as elitist, competitive, parochial and partisan - 'we' vs. 'them'. This unites by differentiating 'us' from 'them'. This instinct enables the group to divide when it gets to big. If not for this instinct, social animals would live together like the Borg in one big hive. The other I'll call the 'uniting' instinct. It expresses itself as empathy, family bonding, cooperation, ecumenical and apolitical. It draws 'us' together by feeling the similarities 'we' share.

    In the real world each person embodies a blend of these two instincts to varying degrees. So, while the circular view is Eastern and the linear view is Western, in fact, people are the same essentially everywhere (my conclusion after 15+ years traveling and/or working 100+ countries on all continents). Thus, I see these circular and linear views as probably just cultural myths. They don't actually end up driving people's actions. Our actions arise from our individual genetic inheritance (biology) and life (circumstance) - nature and nurture. The view we see at any moment is the one that make us feel best... at that moment. We see what we need to see - And, what we need to see is determined by individual genetic inheritance (biology) and life (circumstance).

    Of course this site gives voice to the circular view. The circular view is self cancelling; it pops preconceptions and so promises 'nothing' in the end. The linear view reenforces preconceptions and so promised 'something', like hopes for which one can strive. In reality we all use a mixture of both (subconsciously) depending on the situation, i.e., depending on how our emotions need to see things. Personally I love 'nothing'(*), so I increasingly lean to the circular.

    Why do we lean toward either a circular or linear world view? Perhaps that rests on how social and/or competitive we are. The less socially connected we feel, the more a circular view includes, connects and soothes. Of course if we are both loners and competitive, then we're likely to lean both ways... depending. If we are very group oriented (tribal) and competitive, a linear view feels 'right'. If we are group oriented and cooperative, then we're likely to lean both ways... depending.

    Curiously, the comparative wealth modern life offers us all leaves us all feeling less socially connected than before. Thus, more of us probably hunger for a more circular unifying point of view than our ancestors - albeit, not as circular and natural as Taoist view! But, our growing ecological sensitivity is at least a step back to nature.

    (*) Why do I love 'nothing'? Perhaps because I feel so full.

    • CommentAuthorCarl
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2006 edited
     # 2

    I'm fascinated by how close Topher and my views seem to be in some ways, and how opposite in others - primarily in his 'pro-language' and my 'con-language' position. But, even there I actually agree with him on the extent to which language is crucially useful. One difference may lie in where we think language can take us. I use language in a circular way (especially correlations). So, in my case perhaps 'the tail is wagging the dog', and in Topher's case, 'the dog is wagging the tail', or visa versa... :)

    Topher:

    ...power to me is mastering your own "being"... ... Being exists only in language. I have experienced my own being shifting by my word alone. Oh, what it would be to master my speaking and therefore master who I am being.

    Well good luck on that one! I may experience just the opposite, i.e., as my being "shifts", knowing "shifts", which then "shifts" my words.

    Personally, I've found that simply knowing how things really are is enough - everything takes care of itself from there. The only hitch: 'knowing how things really are'. I got my first hint at how things really are, when, in my early twenties, I noticed my unrelenting interest in women. Of course this in 'normal' for a young fellow, but it felt ironic when I realized(*) there were millions upon millions of pretty women out there, and biology was saying "mate with them all".

    The absurdity of that impulse woke me up to the fact that biology hoodwink us left and right. I felt like a puppet with instinct pulling the strings. Since then I have seen biology's hoodwink everywhere: sports, food, politics, 'love', art, etc. Of course, language plays right into the hoodwinking hands of nature. Emotion (needs and fears) drive to believe what we think. In a way, language has a stranglehold on consciousness. Like the great dinosaurs whose big body dictated their physical relationship with nature, our big brain and its language dictates much of our 'spiritual' relationship with nature. Most experience is filtered through our pre-conceptions. This colors instinctive needs and fears and produces our ever expanding world of desire. What to do? What to do?

    Naturally, biology is here to stay; we are not going to change that or 'control' it. But, understanding what's happening - that we are being hoodwinked at every turn - counterbalances the mind's role in this a little, which helps us return to our roots. And, popping some of those pre-conceptions wouldn't hurt either!

    (*) Now perhaps you see words as the catalyst for my "realization"? In my view, my "being" had to know before my mind could "realize". Knowing is the cause, the words are the effect. Otherwise we could teach wisdom to kids in school and humanity could live happily ever after. (That's not to say that kids raised in environments where deeper wisdom reigns don't have a head start on the path to maturity.)

Add your comments
    Username Password
  • Format comments as (Help)