Allandnone:

Wow, I can really relate to this! Most of my education has led to analytical thinking and intellectual nit picking. What I am discovering, as I get older, is that I do not need faith, I have experience!

You bet! So,... I thought you might find this excerpt from Science News (Vol. 171, No. 7) interesting.

"Scientists have investigated how individuals tell whether someone or something else has a mental life. People, it turns out, attribute to others two distinct dimensions of mental activity.

The researchers dub one dimension of mind perception "experience," meaning a capacity for feeling hunger, fear, pain, rage, desire, pride, embarrassment, and joy. This dimension also implies the presence of self-awareness and a distinctive personality.

The other dimension, "agency," refers to a capacity for self-control, morality, memory, emotion recognition, planning, communication, and thought.

The researchers surveyed 2,399 people who rated pairs of characters described on the survey on one of 18 mental capacities, for example, deciding which member of the pair was more able to feel pain. The pair members were also rated in six other ways, such as which was the more likable character. Characters included a frog, a chimpanzee, a human fetus, a baby, a 5-year-old girl, a man in a persistent vegetative state, an adult woman, God, and a robot that interacts with people.

Volunteers' responses often broke down along the two mind-perception dimensions. For instance, participants felt that characters rated high in agency—such as the active adults—deserved punishment for a misdeed, but participants most wanted to avoid inflicting harm on the characters ranked high in experience, such as the young girl.

Participants perceived God as having much agency but little experience."

My Commentary
Free will is obviously part of the agency dimension, while the 'nuts and bolts of life' actually occur in the experience dimension (in my view, of course). Agency is how we think that reality is, was, will be, or should be. Experience is... well, simply reality as we feel it flow through the moments of our life.

Notice how people attribute God and adult people with "much agency". When the authors wrote serpent's advice in Genesis – "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil" – they were just chronicling our species' status quo. The irony is that as long as we hang onto our (belief) in good and evil, we can never return to our destiny... the 'Eden' of our original nature.

The joke is on us.
I suppose I find it funny because it is so pathetic. I mean, I have to either laugh or cry. Today I'll

Allandnone:

....Does not the Tao Te Ching give us that "new" something?

Yes exactly so! One nit pick though, I think of civilization as "new", and nature as "old". Thus, I'd see this "new" you mention as actually correlating to "old" (origin, nothing, passive, death, etc.).

But, let's stick with old for now:
Let your wheels move only along old ruts.
Of old he who was well versed in the way
Of old, these came to be in the possession of the One:
Of old those who excelled in the pursuit of the way did not use it to enlighten
the people but to hoodwink them.

I assume many would consider such nitpicking around word meaning a bit silly. But, aren't words the 'bricks' we use to build our thoughts? If we have only a shallow and loose sense of these 'bricks' and their meaning, then the thoughts we create tend to be a bit shallow and loose as well.

But, that actually serves us well doesn't it? The more shallow and loose our sense of meaning, the easier it is to rationalize our many desires and 'enjoy' our hypocrisy.

ops: ...Oh, I must add: I'm not referring to you Allandnone! Posting this just reminds me of this problem we all have with words and the thoughts that ensue. Words have an ancestor and affairs have a sovereign. Correlations really help the mind sense this ancestor. Alas, sensing this ancestor is not all that much 'fun'. It would seem that ignorance passes for 'bliss', as least in the short term.

Allandnone:

"...Perhaps that is why "right speech" is one of the eight fold paths.

"Right speech" often carries moral overtones, akin to 'thou shalt not lie'. Knowing that words are illusion sure brings a visceral meaning to "right speech" doesn't it? Why does it take us so long to see what is certainly so obvious? Hmm,... perhaps words are life-rafts of consciousness, and we're terrified to let go.

Allandnone:

(1)... back about 10,000 years ago...
(2)... there was no leisure time to philosophize...
(3)... does time really exist?...

(1) Actually, recent archeology pushes that back to perhaps 50,000 years. Ah, and it seems like only yesterday.

(2) The archeological record also shows that we actually had more leisure and better health before the agricultural revolution of 10,000 years ago. And, studies of modern day hunter gatherer people show that they only 'work' about half a day. They have much more leisure than we do. Certainly though, wealthier folks in agricultural / industrial economies do have time to philosophize,... or just cause trouble for us peons.

(3) No! And I can 'prove' it with correlations! (I know,...:roll So anyway, here are a few that come to mind:

(Active).........(PASSIVE)
existence......VOID
something....NOTHING
mass...........SPACE
energy.........TIME
stirs.............STILLS
forward........BACKWARD
straight........CIRCULAR
life...............DEATH
illusion.........REAL
outside.........INSIDE

Among other things, this shows that what we call time is actually our life's experience of energy inside time. Turning back is how the way moves, and this is also how time moves. The 'way' is 'time'. Both the 'way' and 'time' are vast and resembles nothing. That's why we just can't put our finger on 'it'. ,... or as the good book puts it, darkly visible, it only seems as if it were there. No wonder we are a confused species.

I've been meaning to bring this up. You say that The Way is time? Am I taking this too literally?

Isn't that really big? I mean, I don't think I ever heard you say that before. How does time turn back? It seems to keep going forward to me (and everyone else). You also say that time doesn't exist so what is it? Help me out here!

When I think about time I realize I don't understand what it is. It sure is vast and resembles nothing.

Lynn Cornish:

(1)... You say that The Way is time? Am I taking this too literally?

(2)... How does time turn back? It seems to keep going forward to me (and everyone else). You also say that time doesn't exist so what is it?

(3)... It sure is vast and resembles nothing.

(1) The way is time. If we truly know the nature of time, we know 'the way'. Needless to say this is just my 'point of view', for what it is worth. And as there is a significant hoodwink always being played on me through biology, what do I know? So with that in mind... what is time anyway? (Beside being synonymous with 'the way'.)

(2) The phenomenon we call time, which seems to move forward, is actually energy moving forward. Similarly, the way that leads forward seems to lead backward. Time is stillness, just as energy is action. Thus, relative to energy, turning back is how the way [and time] move.

(3) Quite right! Darkly visible, it only seems as if it were there. I could also say time is God.

Our perceptual difficulty stems from an over reliance on words. Language based awareness so dominates our consciousness that if a thing cannot be named, it doesn't exist. We desperately name the things of which we become aware. I suppose naming is our way of controlling 'it'. As the bible puts it, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." That sure ties up any lose ends doesn't it?

Taoist thought helps us perceive 'outside the box' into which thought puts us, or at least that's the hope. Again, correlations can help to pop those preconceptions which paints human consciousness into its language corner.

Wow, this is getting more interesting as we dicuss it. Perhaps this web site will be somewhat helpful See http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/What%20is%20Time.htm
Cheers,
Allandnone

I'm still here. Once a week or so I come to this thread and read it over. Lots of thoughts about it come and go....my mind doesn't like being outside the box and it leaps back in.

The only part of this that sticks right now is that when meditating,

you settle down into the vanishing present, there is no place or time to be 'transported' to.

The only reason I understand that is because I experience it. I don't really understand anything I haven't experienced...I mean understand deeply...so I'm pretty limited here! ops:

One thought that keeps coming back: in geometry class, Mr. Sweeney said that a straight line is just a series of individual dots. I bet he doesn't remember saying that 40 years ago, but I still do. Time seems to be like that and, like the line, it is just an illusion.

I am most appreciative of all the thought that went into your answers and I am confident that one day all these thoughts will fall into place. Or not. Like allandnone says, it just is.

Carl if I am understanding what you are saying, what drive us is the need for pleasure, comfort and security, and we fear pain and loss. If I am making any sense I would propose the following for consideration:

1. Accept change, nothing stays constant. We usually look at change as a function of our friend called TIME, which does not exist.

2. Practice non-attachment. Do not attach to pleasure or pain, comfort or security, or pain and loss. We need to let things go, flow with it.

3. Everything is connected to each other! Therefore practice non-duality. We need to get above the opposites like pleasure and pain etc. This getting above opposites according to C.G. Jung "..represents not a compromise but something new" See http://www.integralscience.org/psyche-physis.html

4. Practice "Egolessness", it is our ego that is causing the need for pleasure/comfort and the fear of pain/loss.

5. Be in the NOW! The Time concept does not exist in the NOW. Also the opposites, Yin/Yang disappears in the NOW.

6. Minimize/eliminate our selfish deires/lust and what is driving us will also be minimized/eliminated.
Cheers

Lynn you said "I would change one thing: add the word "practice" to "accept change". I am in total agreement with you. Boy I need to keep practicing , but isn't that the fun of life.

Lynn in my opinion you where right on with the dots or points. According to my Geometry book (I am a volunteer math tutor), a point is simply a location. A line is made up of points and has no thickness or width. Wow that is an illusion or abstraction (ha ha). So there are an infinite number of points between two points, and we wonder why kids have a hard time with math (ha ha)!

Joe you brought up two very interesting and challenging points. "Mainly from the basic point of each of us having our thoughts about whatever experience happens in life. We all have myriad thoughts about life, but the thoughts are not life. Where is the "real" world? "

I would like to start out the dialogue and say that perhaps the real world exists in the NOW. A thought is in the past. A thought can not exist in the NOW. And maybe the 'thought' is past tense which we are reacting to, like a reflex, a knee jerk. See http://www.systems-thinking.org/loi/loi.htm

I am leaning towards what David Bohm said in his book 'Thought as a System; "... that thought does not know it is doing something and then struggles against what it is doing". Dr. Bohm's proposed definition of thought "... is that body, emotion, intellect, reflex and artifact are now understood as one unbroken field of mutually informing thought." He is proposing that thought needs to be looked as a system.

The Ladder of Inference is a begining of this system analysis. Sorry, I am a retired control system engineer so I hope I am not boring you death (ha ha).

If anyone is interestef I would be happy to send you a Power Point presentation on how to use the Ladder of Inference that I use with my math and science high school students. Also refer to http://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Fieldbook-Peter-Senge/dp/0385472560/ref=sr_1_1/002-5417500-0533615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185149367&sr=8-1

I just got this in my email from Cheri Huber of the Zen Center in Murphys:

"As we go along in life, we have a growing sense that what we know is not the whole picture. We may even have a sense that there’s a whole lot we don’t know that could make a big difference for us, but the fact that it is unknown is often a source of frustration rather than comfort. The comfort comes only when we realize that we don’t know not because we are lacking something but because there is nothing to know, and, what’s more, there is no one to know it. The comfort comes when we realize there is only the actual,and we cannot know the actual. We can be it, but we cannot know it. One of the ways I recall Jiyu Kennett phrasing that realization: “I am not it; it is all of me.” A distinction that moves us from hell to heaven."

It seemed to fit right in here. The emboldening (is that a word?) is mine.

Oh, while I'm here: I asked my husband Rick "What is time ?" and he responded "time is the context for life." I thought that was pretty good. You wouldn't know he was wise to look at him.

Here's a couple of examples of why we believe in the concept of time--memories and predictions.

If we didn't remember that it hurt when we touched a hot stove, we might do it again. And say we were still hunter/gatherers--if we didn't plan to be at a certain place when the turnips ripen we might starve. Even in the modern world, if I didn't get up and go to work now, later I wouldn't get paycheck and then I wouldn't be able to afford food and shelter. So it has to do with survival of the species. Lots (all?) of our behavior does.

At first, I thought being in the now meant rejecting the past and the future, but you can think about the past and be present or plan for the future and be present.

I know that time does not exist the way we think of it, but, still, if I want to see the Simpson's Movie tomorrow, I better know what time it is and keep an eye on the clock!

I am in total agreement with you Joe! Be in the NOW! We have to keep practicing it, till it becomes a habit, a reflex memory worth having.

My what a good conversation. But a sudden downpour cannot last all day, so I'll jump right in. I love the rain.

Allandnone:

1. Accept change,..
2. Practice non-attachment....
3. Practice non-duality.....
4. Practice "Egolessness",...
5. Be in the NOW! ...
6. Minimize/eliminate our selfish deires/lust ....

I can see by your proposals that you are inclined to want to work hard on this. I've been there, but alas I lost the battle.... ops: In wonderful Taoist irony, I ended up 'winning' the lower position, in the sense that female correlates to failure. Thus, in the ass backwards world of tao, failure is a good thing. Or is it a monstrous thing? Or is it both? What I'm beating around the bush about is this: "practice" is another form of contending with reality. By trying for an ideal, as noble as it may seem, always ends in great hypocrisy. Any attempt to be other than who we are is vanity, making it impossible to "practice egolessness". It is because we just can't win, that we must take the lower position eventually.

Well, aren't I a killjoy? I commend your patience with me Allandnone,

Some days later
Now, feeling that I've not beaten the dead horse sufficiently, I'll prattle on a bit more...

Understanding the problem fully, owning it down to our bones, then stopping to allow stillness to return might be a Taoist way of dealing with this universal problem of ours. Our difficulty comes from trying to do something about this problem - to 'fix it'. Solving problems is an innate survival urge common to all life. If we have a splinter in our paw, we struggle to remove it, yes? Personally, I've found that this urge doesn't 'fix' anything in matters of the 'spirit', despite what instinct tells me. Attempting to resolve my 'spiritual problem' only makes matters worse. Put simply: Therefore the sage, because he does nothing, never ruins anything; and, because he does not lay hold of anything, loses nothing. This certainly flies in the face of our 'fix it' instinct doesn't it?

The 'secret': Sincerely understanding and mindfully remembering (i.e., Buddha's step #1 and #2 on the eight fold path) what is happening is sufficient! When we truly see we are at the precipice we can't help but be fearless in being timid. The less we understand and remember, the more we end up just contending with ourselves. Clearly, the way of heaven excels in overcoming though it does not contend. Isn't following this natural model easier than pitting our ideals (what should be) against reality (what is)?

When I feel the urge to contend, daily in one way or another, I use this feeling as my 'canary in the coal mine' to tell me that mindful understanding is waning; I'd best stop and return to stillness. The 'big picture' always filters through if I'm patient. There is no viable alternative to the way that happens to us naturally. It is so easy... one does less and less until one does nothing at all, and when one does nothing at all there is nothing that is undone. To do anything else is simply meddling with our original 'self'.

Well, that's enough beating on the dead horse for today.

... naturally.

If we're playing the 'sum it up game' then here's my roll..

Its an illusion that its an illusion.[/size]

or is that just a constant that can be named? round.. and round.. i'm dizzy.

Well, that levels out any of the value I inevitably enjoy giving to 'my conclusions'
... oh the irony, oh the mixed bag.

I'm looking at this more with my daughter. How can I get her to ______ (fill in the blank.) What I'm more and more reminded of is that I can't get her to do anything.

I think the best I can do as a parent is be as self-honest as I can. Paying attention to reality, which sometimes is having natural or logical consequences happen to Allie. For example, if she can't get up in the morning, to get started on whatever we need to do, then she needs to get to bed earlier.

I'm letting go of trying to "instill healthy sleeping patterns" for when she grows up. Who knows what influence my rules and consequences will have for her in the long-term. But sticking to "basics", and not trying to get around the "suffering" inherent in life, (have our cake and eat it too) I think is the best I can focus on as a parent. More attention to short-term pain, long-term gain.

This reminds me of something that might be effective (ha ha). When you leave the gate open the cow does not want to leave the pasture (ha ha) Hence, leave the gate open.

In all serious try to get kids to like math and science. I am volunteer math and science tutor. You think you have problems (Haha).

I stand under your comments Carl! Thank you for your input.

hmm~ very interesting

but let me start off by stating this...

Tao Te Ching is 2 books

Tao Ching and Te Ching 1990s excavation for the bamboo scriptures show line 38 to be presented in front so it reads Te Tao Ching. Lol.

Te itself has so much painful lessens I bet most of you will drool in weep in tears if anything

Tao is so mythical yet so simple most of you won't even recognize it by writing what I have on my notes from the lecture series

why?

someone said experience?

hmm... no...

this has something to do wtih inateness in human mind. I bet some of you have never heard something like this since most of the translation is written in something like hyoku meets rhetoric est 1922 when Russel wrote problems with china. Does anyone remembers the rationalization? How our minds rationalize information as it presents itself with our lives?

This is bunch of BS. I don't need to rationalize that crying baby wants his/her mom for nurchering. I don't need to hear large noise to describe that it is a thunder (金剛經). There is no rationalization needed to feed my children. Once again this is just a tip of a dust that assembles the inatenes s in human mind. I would wish everyone had a chance to read more of the better translated books in reverence of original context and meaning rather than some simple terms and hier-gyphic-jibberish they present as knowledgiable individuals.

Goodluck to you all~

Yes, yes, yes, Allandnone. The ironic thing is that we are really no different than the kids, except perhaps a bit less 'energetic'. I suppose the "point your finger" approach comes more from trying to convince ourselves we are 'right' in the hope of shoring up our own insecurity.

First, I must ask what you mean by meditation. I suspect that the more clearly you can answer that, the more clearly you will see how to approach this project. A few things stand out for me as I answer that question for myself:

1) a sense of giving, 2) a sense of taking great care, 3) a sense of great nothingness (which probably connected to the giving, in that when you are giving all, you are 'empty without being exhausted', as the Tao Te Ching would say.)

Once I know what I mean by the word meditation, I can observe the student's reality and see what elements of these qualities are in decline.

The problem is, as with 'getting a horse to drink water', how to spark another person's interest in doing something - anything - in a meditative approach,( i.e., incorporating those definitions I gave above) before one has experienced the benefit of approaching life that way. Most people probably get really serious about approaching their life differently after have a crisis of consciousness. Kids are more in the stage of "setting it up" which paves the way for later "laying it aside"... If you would have a thing laid aside, You must first set it up.

Also, for kids, sitting forms of meditation may not be that inspiring. So what is?

If you know what inspires someone, you can use that as a vehicle for them to apply the essence of meditation. Anything done with a meditative quality will give back to the giver many time over what they 'gave'. Again, the trick is to get someone to believe that before they have experience it.

But, in truth everyone has experience that, though many don't see the principle involved or how it applies to their life in general.

Well, I've managed to talk all around the question. If it were me, I guess I would experiment, keeping in mind some of these basic issues of what meditation actually is.

Perhaps someone else has a more practical answer?

Yes, meditation through action is what appeals to most kids. Archery, Zen style, comes to mind. Anything 'zen style' would work. The task is to plant the connection in their minds. The 'coolness' of perfection in everything you do. Actions that have appeal would be easier to start the ball rolling: karate, judo, shodo.

The aspect I most appreciated about Japan was how the spiritual ideal (zen and such) was integrated into every activity mundane or other wise. Of course, the individual must step up to the plate to bring the ideal into the real, but at least having this cultural paradigm sets the stage for one. No other culture that I know of has such a thorough wedding of the spiritual idea and action. Certainly not Western cultures.

How to get kids to see that 'watchful action' (i.e., meditation) will give them what they truly want in life? In raising my sons I've had years to instill that sense. Still, if there is pain and loneliness, there is bound to be a receptiveness. Find the cracks in the shield people erect exposes a point of entry.

Of action, any action can be the vehicle. So, perhaps use actions that are already part of their life. I guess what I'm getting at here is that you will have better luck if you use what is important to them as a vehicle to teach the 'meditation'. This parallels how Christians used the pagan solstice to make Christmas. Building upon what is already there is the way, I reckon.

I know what you mean. Although it seems contradictory, it isn't really - in my view. Here goes….

Words for human animals serves the same purpose as grooming rituals do for monkeys. Social species have their various means of connecting and communicating with one another. Examples abound like the things dogs, ants, bees, ducks, and the other social species do to connect and communicate. We use words, not only to connect and communicate with each other, but to connect and communicate with ourselves via thoughts. The later (i.e., inner conversation) is the odd part, and probably not shared by other animals because they have no 'out of body mind' to speak of.

I see the "teaching's" main point is really this: Don't trust words, names and thought to accurately represent reality and truth. Most, if not all, of our difficulties arise from trusting language, words, names - thinking. Chapter 71 speaks to this:

To know yet to think that one does not know is best;
Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.

It is by being alive to difficulty that one can avoid it. The sage meets with
no difficulty. It is because he is alive to it that he meets with no difficulty.

"To know yet to think that one does not know" acknowledges the fact that we think, i.e., use words to speak to ourselves. "Think that one knows will lead to difficulty" points to the fact that trusting our thinking causes us difficulty.

In short, our problem is not "communicating, using words". Our problem is thinking that words convey reality and truth. "To know yet to think that one does not know" is another way to say, don't trust thinking, speaking, word and names. And yes, as chapter 78 puts it, Straightforward words seem paradoxical.

Why do we trust words so? In a word, emotion! Take the emotion out of word meaning and meaning is lost. Emotion is the same visceral energy that drives a dog to trust scents or a bee to trust the 'bee dance'.

Another reason we rely on words so much is that they are so cheap and easy to use. If I had to do a push up for each word I typed, this reply would be much much shorter!

let me be a little provocative again

Feel free to be a provocative as you like! I don't hold anything back either as you can see. Now if I could just be more brief.

That set of pictures sure conveys things easier than words can! Like they say "a picture is worth a thousand words".

It is not surprising, then, that images also convey personal biases a thousand times more powerfully than words do (except for the image; shadowy and indistinct, of course).

So, I imagine images covey the teaching that uses no words, the benefit of resorting to no action, even worse than words do, being as how powerful images convey personal bias. Now, this doesn't apply to ambient images, i.e., those sights and sound 'out there' which we sense constantly. Bias occurs when we are either attracted or repulsed by what we see. This attraction or repulsion just mirrors our own inner needs and fears, i.e., meaning is in the eye of the beholder.

One of the main themes in the Tao Te Ching is impartiality. Put another: Exhibit the unadorned and embrace the uncarved block, have little thought of self and as few desires as possible.

This is not to say having biases, desires and thoughts of self are wrong, bad, and to be avoided. After all, If you would have a thing laid aside, You must first set it up;, and so on. Youth is chock full with many thoughts of self and desires. Maturity is the process of gradually leaving much of that behind. Not because we 'try to' mind you. It happens naturally.

I see the 'teaching' as just giving us clues about where the true source of our difficulties lie; after all, it is by being alive to difficulty that one can avoid it. Knowing that thoughts of self and desire make life more difficult can at least tell us who to 'blame' for our difficulties.

I understand your passion against "monoculture produce, television, coca cola and chips". I find that the world we think we see 'out there' is actually only a reflection of our own desires and fears. Nevertheless, we instinctively see the world 'out there' as somehow real and 'objective' in its own right. All animals do this. We are unique in that we use words and names to nail down a conceptual sense of objective reality.

Of course, nature has set us (and all living things) up to respond and react to the stimuli as though it were reality, not as some projection of our own needs and fears. Basically, biology does not use it to enlighten the people [and all living things] but to hoodwink them. Humans increase their difficulties by thinking. Having words and names allows us to dwell on issues for years. Other animals can drop most of hoodwink as soon as the stimuli fades.

The beauty of taoist thought is that it attempts to help us peel away some of that hoodwink, not that it succeeds mind you. But, no matter, after all Great perfection seems chipped.

Well, time to go pick weeds!