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Core Issues of Human Nature: Belief is comforting but is that worth what I really want?
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- CommentAuthorLynn Cornish
- CommentTimeAug 17th 2005 edited
yes, we need to do something to get something and thats the
meaning of action and reaction.In Christianity, there is something called grace where you get something for nothing. Do you believe in anything like that? I like the idea of it.
Regarding all religions preaching the value of goodness, isn't this just because that's what works for society? The idea that we will be rewarded in the future for being good today is how we are kept in line, kept cooperating, obeying. I'm not saying this is bad, I'm sure it's very wise, but I don't believe that it's our divine destiny. I don't think it means a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things.
Mr. Preacherman, this is a Taoist web site, where good and bad are the same, issue forth from the same source, only differ in name. You are not going to convince me of your beliefs and I will not win you over to mine, so let's just live and let live. Whatever works, is what I say.
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- CommentAuthorLittle Dragon
- CommentTimeAug 18th 2005 edited
Hi Lynn
Just catching up with the discussion (before going on holiday) and have caught your discussion about altruism/good virtue etc. May I recommend a book to you (which you should have no difficulty getting hold of in the US) "The Altruism Question" by C D Batson, which looks at all the work of the author from the mid 70's until 1990 (he is still publishing work in this area). My dissertation that I completed from my Masters also deals with altruism & empathy. If you would like to read it the address is: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/laurence.bunnage/ then click on Sian Bunnage and page down to my research interests section and click on the title of my dissertation.
The debate about the existence of altruism is a very long running one. Two of the main arguments against 'pure' altruism are the kinship theory, where we'll do nice things for people who're related to us and the reciprocal theory, where we do nice things for others in the hope of them reciprocating at some time in the future. A simple example causes problems for both these views - you're walking along a riverbank and you see someone in difficulties in the water; without thought you take off your shoes, dive in and save them. The fact is that you probably don't know the person, nor are related to them, and the likelihood of them being able to reciprocate in a similar way at some point in the future is fairly unlikely.
Another argument against 'pure' altruism is that of negative-state relief. Simply put, we see someone in trouble, it makes us feel bad and we do something nice for them in order to make ourselves feel better.
Hope this adds some grist to the mill. And now having swep in and added my two penn'orth, I'll swep out again.
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- CommentAuthorwisdom preacher
- CommentTimeAug 18th 2005 edited
hi Lynn,
you have just raised a statement with so much doubt on it but do you really know why you get something for doing nothing.this is very interesting
indeed but how many can answer it.well i will try to answer that for you and
please take note that my answer doesnt represent christianity as a whole and its just one of my wisdom.in my part of practice i also preached that we can get something for doing nothing and that is why i have said earlier
that our life have been pre destined and the moment you get something for doing nothing also depends on your karma effect as the karma said
you are going to be a millionaire in your late 40 but how are you going to be a millionaire with just a sweeper job by the roadside?so there comes a lottery that you buy where it will strike or there are still other oppurtunity
that will come without you realise.in chritianity its grace but in my
practice its called your time has come to be a millionaire and there is no one
or nobody can stop you from getting it .so in layman terms its your luck has come.i dont intend to convince anyone as i am not in the position to do it
as all are up to you all to decide but my motive is to pass down my nature wisdom and taught you all to have more confidence in your daily life rather
than facing the darkness in future. -
Hi Lynn,
I think this is a bit off topic, but reading this thread got me thinking about predetermination etc., which I am rather indifferent to as I tend to approach things with a more post modern perspective (not entirely though, as I find post modernism to be very cynical and altogether a bit depressing)...I think this has been touched on already, but the question I have, is if "God knew his people in advance" (Romans 8:29), why is there a need for evangelicalism etc. Why, if christianity is a religion based on faith, is there the need to preach and convert others, when they could rest in the knowledge that God knows exactly what will happen to each and every one of us anyway? Are they acting as tools of God, as he has decided, or are they contradicting his plans? OR, was that written to encourage good works, altruism and all those warm fuzzy things, rather than to be read literally as a prerequisite for salvation? And if they are tools of God, and seeing how many over-zealous evangelicalists and missionaries turn people away from the religion, why would he choose that method?
I vaguely remember reading in the bible that "faith without works is nothing" or something along those lines, I know that Christianity is not about resting on your lorrels with the happy knowledge that because you believe you're going to heaven, but I'm wondering how christians reconcile their idea of predetermination with some of these 'works'.I don't mean this as a missionary-bash session, so please don't read it as such, just a thought to ponder.
On a different note, with regards to altruism, I think it's a blend of psychological and sociological issues, and very much depends on the level of risk involved. I agree with wisdom preacher that it certainly holds an element of ridding yourself of a bad feeling, and so, altruism is selfish... but I think it's more than that. Partly holding elements of self-elevation in society, species preservation, and as little dragon said, reciprocal. If we lost this belief in the altruistic nature of society, there would be a lot more nervous people about. I'm unconvinced about pure altruism, because I think there are so many contributing factors in every action we do, that to strip the motivations for them to one, is unrealistic, so I don't think any action could be 'pure'.
Not sure if this is restating parts of this conversation already, apologies if I am.
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Hi Alexis,
My how time flies! We say, in action it is timeliness that matters. So, is this a timely reply to your post? Maybe in 'Taoland', eh?
alexis:
1) ...but the question I have, is if "God knew his people in advance" (Romans 8:29), why is there a need for evangelicalism etc. Why, if Christianity is a religion based on faith, is there the need to preach and convert others,
2) ...If we lost this belief in the altruistic nature of society, there would be a lot more nervous people about.
1) Tribal instinct drives us to convert others to our 'truth', whether that 'truth' be religious, political, or just some personal agenda we have. We're social animals driven to interact socially. Why else would I be typing here?
2) You hit the nail on the head. We hold firmly to our beliefs, whatever they are, to shield us from the void, and that foreboding sense of death it imparts.